tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post1068193366115692819..comments2024-03-28T02:36:04.078-07:00Comments on Health Correlator: Dietary protein does not become body fat if you are on a low carbohydrate dietNed Kockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-22382260981245464212021-09-19T08:08:30.947-07:002021-09-19T08:08:30.947-07:00This post is a revised version of a previous post....This post is a revised version of a previous post. The original comments are preserved here. More comments welcome, but no spam please!Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-7871022767118497692011-07-24T11:18:45.741-07:002011-07-24T11:18:45.741-07:00Lyle McDonald makes a good case for what you have ...Lyle McDonald makes a good case for what you have been arguing:<br /><br />http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrition/excess-protein-and-fat-storage-qa.htmlDavid Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-19595276588927399932011-07-21T19:57:31.248-07:002011-07-21T19:57:31.248-07:00Thanks garymar, very interesting.Thanks garymar, very interesting.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-4808984358518608142011-07-21T19:48:58.818-07:002011-07-21T19:48:58.818-07:00You’re welcome BigWhiskey. It helps me too.You’re welcome BigWhiskey. It helps me too.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-87305071101885143082011-07-21T19:22:25.127-07:002011-07-21T19:22:25.127-07:00I didn't know birds got diabetes.
More fun bi...I didn't know birds got diabetes.<br /><br />More fun bird facts: in chickens it's the female who has the Y chromosome, the reverse of mammals. Actually they call it a W chromosome: hens have ZW chromosomes but roosters have ZZ.garymarhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13815261454130108955noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-34890917400697460342011-07-21T04:00:37.563-07:002011-07-21T04:00:37.563-07:00Ned, thanks for having the patience to break ideas...Ned, thanks for having the patience to break ideas and processes down to "in other words" level for the lay-folks such as yours truly.BigWhiskeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08420444056304643922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-31919063012620056272011-07-20T13:59:31.267-07:002011-07-20T13:59:31.267-07:00Hi Mal. In simple terms, the pancreas talks to the...Hi Mal. In simple terms, the pancreas talks to the liver via two main hormones – insulin and glucagon. Insulin tells the liver to store sugar (as glycogen), and glucagon tells the liver to release sugar. Insulin is secreted by what are known as beta cells in the pancreas; glucagon by alpha cells.<br /><br /> In humans, diabetes is a disease of impaired beta cell function, where insulin is produced in insufficient quantities (type 2 diabetes) or not at all (type 1 diabetes), with many levels in between. In birds, diabetes is (usually) a disease of impaired alpha cell function, where glucagon secretion is messed up.<br /><br /> The main function of the hormones insulin and glucagon is to allow the pancreas to talk to the liver.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-67448996083102182112011-07-20T10:58:55.422-07:002011-07-20T10:58:55.422-07:00"That idea of endogenous protein digestion is..."That idea of endogenous protein digestion is very interesting David, but the amount (50-100 g) sounds quite high!"<br /><br />Yes, the number surprised me, too, but when I think about the rate at which gastrointestinal cells are replaced, I'm more inclined to consider it. (200 square meters, replaced every 5-7 days...plus who knows how many digestive enzymes?)<br /><br />I think we tend to represent our bodies as a series of boxes that things are put into or taken out of, when in fact when we are healthy there is a good deal more flux.David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-7678474996605219622011-07-20T10:21:51.526-07:002011-07-20T10:21:51.526-07:00I don't have a post, Malpaz, but here's an...I don't have a post, Malpaz, but here's an article: <a href="http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/53/suppl_3/S16.full.pdf+html" rel="nofollow">Five Stages of Evolving Beta-Cell Dysfunction During Progression to Diabetes</a>.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-38284753519064373952011-07-20T09:49:52.732-07:002011-07-20T09:49:52.732-07:00is there a post on beta cell functioning, that'...is there a post on beta cell functioning, that's a new one for me. I am confused again :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-48423216711053006492011-07-20T08:09:22.709-07:002011-07-20T08:09:22.709-07:00Ned, your explanations of alpha and beta cell func...Ned, your explanations of alpha and beta cell function sound right to me. Thanks for bringing up the alternative scenario, which I tend to forget for some reason.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-28849974262163124552011-07-20T07:49:21.219-07:002011-07-20T07:49:21.219-07:00Protein normally leads to a significant insulin re...Protein normally leads to a significant insulin response, of the same order as natural carb-rich foods, and less than refined carb-rich foods.<br /><br />The link below is for a post summarizing Holt et al’s study on the insulin responses to carbs and protein, which is a classic, and apparently fairly reliable:<br /><br />http://bit.ly/bap0xg<br /><br />But typically the glucose response to protein ingestion is insignificant. The main reason is that glucagon and insulin are secreted together by the pancreas.<br /><br />A couple of possible reasons for the glucose response to protein are: (a) mildly impaired beta-cell function combined with non-adapted alpha-cell function; and (b) impaired beta-cell function combined with adapted alpha-cell function.<br /><br />If someone has mildly impaired beta-cell function, and non-adapted alpha-cell function, I can see the possibility of the glucagon-to-insulin ratio going up immediately after a protein meal. The glucose response would be due glycogenolysis in the liver, not production of glucose based on amino acids. I would expect this to be observed in folks with early stage impaired beta-cell function.<br /><br />If someone has impaired beta-cell function, and adapted (or matched) alpha-cell function, the glucagon-to-insulin ratio may not go up after a protein meal, but there may be no insulin to deal with the glucose produced later based on glucogenic amino acids (alanine, glycine etc.). I would expect this to be observed in folks who’ve had impaired beta-cell function for a while.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-69719111135052325642011-07-20T07:46:56.490-07:002011-07-20T07:46:56.490-07:00Mal, based on what I’ve read before as a basis for...Mal, based on what I’ve read before as a basis for some posts here, I think that bodybuilders often develop diabetes because they become obese as they get older. Not because of the high protein intake earlier. I may be wrong though.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-43860734790318816752011-07-20T07:41:13.443-07:002011-07-20T07:41:13.443-07:00That idea of endogenous protein digestion is very ...That idea of endogenous protein digestion is very interesting David, but the amount (50-100 g) sounds quite high!<br /><br /> Anyway, there is also the recycling of amino acids that goes on at the cell level, related to autophagocytosis by the cell’s cleaning up crew (lysosomes).Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-65819734866181211362011-07-20T07:35:26.008-07:002011-07-20T07:35:26.008-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-80816193280935546622011-07-20T07:34:53.438-07:002011-07-20T07:34:53.438-07:00on the protein excess...many, even lots to argue b...on the protein excess...many, even lots to argue bodybuilders who eat insatiable amount of protein go on to have diabetes...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-23639725469441545492011-07-20T06:46:29.253-07:002011-07-20T06:46:29.253-07:00Ned, I would agree that high blood sugars in respo...Ned, I would agree that high blood sugars in response to excess protein are in part due to insulin resistance. Dr. Richard Bernstein makes a point of telling diabetics to control their protein intake as well as their carb intake, but he is one of the few who realize that protein intake provokes an insulin response.<br /><br />As David Isaak said, the Eades' <i>6-Week Cure for the Middle-Aged Middle</i> calls for lots of whey shakes and produces high blood sugars in some people. That suggests that the shakes may increase blood sugar in everybody, but for those with an intact insulin response system, insulin covers it and the effect is not seen if it is measured with a glucometer alone.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-15815820804690999302011-07-19T20:21:32.800-07:002011-07-19T20:21:32.800-07:00BTW, I'm reading an interesting eBook on prote...BTW, I'm reading an interesting eBook on protein by Brad Pilon. He points out something I hadn't really thoght about before:<br /><br />"Here is some more little known information about protein. If you were to eat 50 grams of protein on any given day, you would actually be digesting between 100 and 150 grams of protein! This is because your body also digests an additional 50 to 100 grams of endogenous protein every single day. Endogenous protein is the protein that is secreted into your gastrointestinal tract by your body<br />(endogenous means that your body produced it without getting it from your diet).<br /><br />These proteins come from saliva, gastric juice, pancreatic enzymes and other secretions as well as intestinal cells and proteins that have leaked into the intestine from the blood. We basically have a built-in protein recycling operation, utilizing ‘scrap’ proteins that are no longer needed by the body to build new proteins that are ‘in demand’."<br /><br />He then goes on to discuss the new idea that we may also absorb some proteins produced by gut bacteria. (Their role in providing short-chain fatty acids is well-known.)<br /><br />I'd never really thought of protein intake before in the context of the body's overall protein flux...David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-8004008823901445012011-07-19T20:15:55.533-07:002011-07-19T20:15:55.533-07:00As a follow-on to Stargazey's comments, many p...As a follow-on to Stargazey's comments, many people have reported blood-sugar spikes from particular forms of protein--especially rapidly absorbed forms such as whey.<br /><br />The case of whey is especially interesting, as two groups seem to use it in large volumes--bodybuilders on the one hand, people on quick weight-loss programs like the Eades 6-Week Cure.<br /><br />Bodybuilders tend to report muscle gain and leaning out.<br /><br />On the other hand, many folks on the 6-Week Cure reported huge spikes in blood glucose, and a number of those people reported no weight loss (even though it is a very calorie restricted diet.<br /><br />The people who reported those blood-sugar spikes tended to be diabetic (who else measures their blood sugar that often?) and relatively sedentary (the two often go together).<br /><br />So, metabolically, I think what happens with excess protein depends at the minimum on 1) how rapidly absorbed it is, and 2) exercise levels, glycogen tanks, and the rest, and 3) half a dozen other factors I probably haven't thought of.David Isaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04928598446742324391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-61168952942898418522011-07-19T18:59:30.803-07:002011-07-19T18:59:30.803-07:00Hi Stargazey. I think you are generally correct, a...Hi Stargazey. I think you are generally correct, and this is something that deserves a separate post. In fact, for those who don’t exercise (or exercise very little), a high fat and moderate protein approach may not be a bad idea at all. This is something more in line with the approach that our good friend Peter follows and talks about over at Hyperlipid. (He may also consider starting another blog – Hypermover.)<br /><br /> Btw, I suspect that the results you’ve seen in your survey are in part due to insulin resistance. IR is positively associated with age, and also with body fat mass. Body fat mass might have gone up for several of those folks as they increased their protein intake without significantly decreasing their fat intake.<br /><br /> I am guessing here, but I think it is a reasonable guess based on the results you got.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-53914217016275736622011-07-19T18:06:11.100-07:002011-07-19T18:06:11.100-07:00Ned, thanks for reading and considering my posts. ...Ned, thanks for reading and considering my posts. I realize that you are mostly discussing dietary protein in the context of an exercise program. However, it's easy for us sedentary types (especially those of us over 50) to take your conclusions and use them to substitute protein for carbs and then wonder why our blood sugar is much higher than we're used to. Caveat consumptor!<br /><br />I don't see Malpaz suggesting a protein-only diet. Kimkins taught us about the dangers of rabbit starvation. However, when you eat lots of protein plus extra fat or carbs but do not consider total daily caloric expenditure, if the protein doesn't go to fat, then the fat or carbs will. Because of that, people are able to increase their body fat on a zero-carb diet. (Sorry, Malpaz, if I misinterpreted your comment.)Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-83065195747216046882011-07-19T17:37:13.193-07:002011-07-19T17:37:13.193-07:00Hi Mal. The brain is fueled primarily by glucose a...Hi Mal. The brain is fueled primarily by glucose and ketones.<br /><br /> I assume you are talking about insomnia. The only connection I can see is with calorie restriction. Protein is not very calorie-dense and severe calorie restriction often leads to mental disturbances, including psychosis.<br /><br /> If one eats 200 g/d of protein (not a low intake), and nothing else more, chances are that’ll be severe calorie restriction territory.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-92220675956471908842011-07-19T17:26:40.537-07:002011-07-19T17:26:40.537-07:00Hi Stargazey. Thanks for commenting and for the li...Hi Stargazey. Thanks for commenting and for the links; I read both posts with interest. I also went to Jenny’s calculator. I don’t know if you realized this, maybe you did - the calculator’s recommendations are very consistent with this post.<br /><br /> In fact, after I entered my data it recommended a high protein (200 g/d) and relatively low fat (100 g/d) intake to “avoid catabolizing muscle” at a 50 g/d carb intake. One key factor in the calculation seems to be the amount of exercise I do.<br /><br /> I think that 200 g/d of protein is more than what I currently consume. Moderate weight training tends to contribute to placing the body in positive nitrogen balance. I’m not sure the calculator differentiates between this type of exercise and aerobic exercise, which actually pushes you into negative nitrogen balance territory.<br /><br /> For others interested, the calculator is here:<br /><br /> http://www.phlaunt.com/lowcarb/19058429.phpNed Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-54835056429760817022011-07-19T13:49:58.908-07:002011-07-19T13:49:58.908-07:00i have gained weight in the past on high protein l...i have gained weight in the past on high protein low carb... but 2 things. i included dairy which assumes a higher than needed fat content, and i put on a lot of muscle in the process.<br /><br />about the brain getting excess amino/protein energy... i find a high protein diet keep me level mentally but also keeps me 'going' mentally at night. if the excess protein doesnt spike BS/insulin/glucose will it lead to longer than needed periods of elevated BS?<br /><br />i think the main point is anything in excess is going to be stored as fat, but fat being WHAT is stored macro wise. i think you would die before you gained weight eating a fat free all protein diet. or become to dry skinned and constipated before diarrhea from rabbit starvation... i dont see the 'point' in the post because most people know if you eat in excess its the dietary fat thats stored, very effectivelyAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-451381723585540902011-07-19T11:51:46.356-07:002011-07-19T11:51:46.356-07:00Ned, anecdotally, a group of low-to-no-carbers not...Ned, <a href="http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009/07/observations-on-protein-intake-in-low.html" rel="nofollow">anecdotally</a>, a group of low-to-no-carbers noticed that eating too much protein led to high blood glucose. I discussed a possible mechanism for it <a href="http://lowcarb4u.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-can-eating-excess-protein-raise.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br /><br />Even if the conversion of protein to fat is metabolically unlikely, the consumption of excess protein can present other health risks that need to be considered.Stargazeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09566854038842118222noreply@blogger.com