tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post4782711779709023890..comments2024-03-28T02:36:04.078-07:00Comments on Health Correlator: Triglycerides, VLDL, and industrial carbohydrate-rich foodsNed Kockhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-38031423400294015722013-02-18T06:33:17.595-08:002013-02-18T06:33:17.595-08:00good post. I think this article :
http://www.heal...good post. I think this article :<br /><br />http://www.healthcentral.com/cholesterol/c/7986/108666/carbohydrates/<br /><br />outlines the process quite well.<br /> <br />Also, the comment about carb experiments on rats. Most animals, excluding humans, some other primates and guinea pigs, can produce gulonolactone oxidase, therefore converting glucose to vitamin C. Thus comparing rats (btw - what type of rats ?) to human metabolism may not quite proper.tallienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-4996446839627634172012-04-30T13:29:50.409-07:002012-04-30T13:29:50.409-07:00@ Pem:
It looks like with your higher LDL, you st...@ Pem:<br /><br />It looks like with your higher LDL, you still have some inflammation at the liver level. (But it's great you have a good HDL and low triglycerides. Congrats!)<br /><br />Two things you can consider for optimal hs crp (that's better than just regular crp and this is for liver inflammation level). 1. You can supplement with curcumin and 2. You can use the cold thermogenisis as described by Dr. Jack Kruse. If you have any indicators of high blood sugars, CT will certainly crush those, along with correcting systemic inflammation. It's truly remarkable and I highly suggest you check the CT out! :-)Zorica Vuletichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05793548904884383364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-85739691206950359362012-04-29T17:33:38.643-07:002012-04-29T17:33:38.643-07:00When I first went low carb my triglycerides tested...When I first went low carb my triglycerides tested as 27, which was below the reference range used by the lab at the time. I tried to find out if there was any danger from low triglycerides but concluded probably not. I'm genetically lucky--HDL over 70 and triglycerides under 50 with not very careful low carb and only a few hours of real exercise a week. My LDL is higher than my doctor likes, in the 130s, but I refuse to consider it a problem with my other numbers so good.<br /><br />My triglycerides were under 100 even before I went low carb, but I was going into diabetes as shown by blood glucose spikes after meals and gaining weight.<br /><br />So what is the liver doing to result in high LDL and low triglycerices?Pemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15013673393201944341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-90986768019522779262011-12-17T13:30:06.454-08:002011-12-17T13:30:06.454-08:00@Steve: at age 57 I'm also interested in these...@Steve: at age 57 I'm also interested in these things, but the internet isn't exactly overflowing with it.<br /><br />I did run across this, not what you want but still interesting:<br /><br /><i>it would be incorrect to generalize ... that all VLF diets inevitably lead to an increased number of small, dense LDL particles ... Indeed, at the Pritikin Center we found that the LDL status of 6 of 22 subjects actually changed from pattern B to pattern A ... while consuming a VLF diet, which is the exact opposite of the trend observed by Dreon et al (6).</i><br /><br /><a rel="nofollow">http://www.ajcn.org/content/70/3/423.full</a><br /><br /><br />Btw, did niacin do anything helpful for you?Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409056468297249099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-4949218346809474102011-12-14T19:45:18.346-08:002011-12-14T19:45:18.346-08:00Lerner: Thanks for the URL. I am aware of the re...Lerner: Thanks for the URL. I am aware of the research of Krauss. The question for me is how low to take the starch carbs in my diet in order to have an LDL particle profile- what % small LDL of total LDL- consistent with minimizing further CAD. At age 61 I want to manage this as best possible.<br />Regards,<br />Stevestevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-63204907413634778812011-12-11T15:40:27.832-08:002011-12-11T15:40:27.832-08:00also fwiw, I can eat carbs all day (bread, potatoe...also fwiw, I can eat carbs all day (bread, potatoes, noodles, peanut butter, barbecue cheese puffs, etc.) and that does not change my body composition unless I eat too many calories - which I don't do. For me anyway, it's all about the calories and not at all about macronutrient ratios. (I am also not an aerobics afficionado.)Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409056468297249099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-48656810353180808932011-12-11T15:34:26.485-08:002011-12-11T15:34:26.485-08:00Here is a page on genetic predisposition and parti...Here is a page on genetic predisposition and particle size:<br /><br />http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Archive/extremediet-patternb.html<br /><br />It's from the same place, Lawrence Berkely Lab, where Ned's particle photos originally came from - but from the year 2000 when lo-fat was the fad instead of lo-carb.<br /><br />"For patients who started out with the pattern B cholesterol profile, the study by Krauss and his research group showed that an extreme low-fat/high-carbohydrate diet can reduce the number of circulating small LDL particles which in turn reduces the risk of heart disease."<br /><br />But OTOH:<br /><br />"For patients who started out with the pattern A cholesterol profile, however, Krauss and his research group found that an extreme low- fat/high-carbohydrate diet worked to reduce the cholesterol content of the LDL particles circulating in the blood. This depletion in the composition of the LDL particles resulted in a downsizing that in turn led to a conversion from the pattern A to the pattern B profile."<br /><br />So yes, as steve says, it's not simple on how Pattern B arises.<br /><br />Btw, here's a very quick animation I'd made showing the principle of how starting out with less cholesterol per particle (as presumably after a hi-carb meal) can typically result in a smaller particle:<br /><br />http://visionals.info/LDLsize.phpLernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409056468297249099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-57084500217617246952011-12-07T15:42:22.068-08:002011-12-07T15:42:22.068-08:00Interesting post. I would point out several thing...Interesting post. I would point out several things: for some of us, we have low trgs- less than 70, and still have small LDL as a high proportion of total LDL. Weight normal,etc. <br />Not as simple as you make it out to be. I eat no wheat, or grains except some rice/potatoes, little to no fruit, and no sugar. My trigs are 40, and small LDL still far higher % of total LDL than i would like.<br />Also, research from Atvos seems to show what Lerner said: total amount of particles first; then small LDLstevenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-8974438985263502832011-12-05T04:42:35.720-08:002011-12-05T04:42:35.720-08:00I was neurotic about getting enough calories and w...I was neurotic about getting enough calories and weighed my food so my estimations were very close. I was eating mostly dates so it made it pretty easy to accurately measure calories. If you check out the 30bananasaday forum you'll see the trend of people eating ridiculous amounts of calories but looking anorexic skinny. They have done studies on rats and they feed them almost pure sucrose diets, the rats stay very lean. Obviously there is some sort of catalyst that makes carbohydrates fattening, my guess is PUFAs with there beta cell damaging properties.Keenanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15710975434667834631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-61723544094091609962011-12-04T08:05:55.750-08:002011-12-04T08:05:55.750-08:00A 190-lb reasonably fit man once told me that he l...A 190-lb reasonably fit man once told me that he lost 40 lbs of body fat consuming 4,000 calories per day, 60 percent of which were carbohydrates. He wanted to know how. After he answered a few questions, it was clear to me that he grossly overestimated his caloric intake. This is not as common as underestimating caloric intake, but happens a lot too.<br /><br /> A colleague who couldn’t lose weight told me that she had adopted the diet that I have been following (see “My transformation” post, linked at the top of this blog). I asked her if she was avoiding industrial foods. She said yes, with exception of: (a) “cheesecake”, which she ate with “healthy fruits at night”; and (b) “healthy cereal in the morning, but no bread”, together with eggs and bacon.<br /><br /> These two examples illustrate patterns of behavior that are unfortunately very, very common.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-25170644142462030372011-12-04T06:10:17.038-08:002011-12-04T06:10:17.038-08:00Hi Gladina. Here is a post on a study of the OD (J...Hi Gladina. Here is a post on a study of the OD (JK’s diet), if you haven’t seen already:<br /><br /> http://bit.ly/rW065a<br /><br /> I don’t think this study truly reflects a “pure” OD following, but it is a good study in many respects. If one’s HDL is going up a lot, with trigs going down, LDL numbers should not matter much for an otherwise healthy person.<br /><br /> Having said that, I am not sure about some aspects of the OD. One example is the “protein only in small amounts” idea.<br /><br /> Seafood consumption is almost universally found to be health-promoting, and yet seafood has a much higher protein-to-fat ratio than muscle meat from ruminants, as well as other sources of animal protein.<br /><br /> So I doubt that protein from natural sources, per se, could be the problem. Protein in unnatural forms, such as protein powders; that is a different story.<br /><br /> The reality seems to be that, as body fat mass goes up beyond a certain level (which varies from person to person), so do health problems.<br /><br /> So the problem with too much protein may be that, when it is taken together with a lot of fat, it drives body fat mass up. Protein is also insulinogenic, but not as much as engineered carb-rich foods:<br /><br /> http://bit.ly/grde0g<br /><br /> Energy balance, body fat gain, muscle gain etc. – they are all fundamentally number games. Eating natural, high nutrient-calorie ratio foods helps your body reach optimal levels. Crunching numbers helps too.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-11142710595111870652011-12-04T05:56:24.429-08:002011-12-04T05:56:24.429-08:00How do you explain the 811 diet? I did the diet f...How do you explain the 811 diet? I did the diet for 8 months and was the lowest weight I've ever been in my adult life. This was all while consuming ~1000 grams of carbs daily and maybe doing a couple miles of walking. <br /><br />I could see two factors that influence this weightloss, the fiber and the very low fat aspect. <br /><br />I do something similar now with zero fiber juice and milk that is much higher in fat and protein(and slightly higher cals) but I also am way more athletic. I have yet to gain anything but lean mass on my current regimen for the most part despite eating 150 grams of fat and 700 grams of carbs daily.Keenanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15710975434667834631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-10838034301824289882011-12-03T14:13:42.450-08:002011-12-03T14:13:42.450-08:00That's a good point you say about animal prote...That's a good point you say about animal protein. Of course it's not good to get too much even from 'natural' sources. It's just wise to eat a moderate amount, as proposed by Jan Kwasnieski. Interesting how he was so correct in many things without having provided full range of 'evidence' at all times. (I'm no the only one to point this out of course, as Peter and Stan have both continually pointed out such observations regarding JK).<br /><br />Also, for some people eating TOO much protein actually induces anxiety-like responses. This even in the presence of an individual who may be lacking enough dopamine too. <br /><br />I don't have scientific evidence to back it up, just anecdotal evidence. If you care to dig up some supporting articles, feel free, although I kind of realize the fallacy in post hoc analysis, but still it could at least provide supporting evidence none the less, and generate hypothesis to investigate further. <br /><br />Also, I am frustrated at the fad-like approach people take with 'paleo'. I agree with other frustrated commentors that 'paleo' should not define what is 'healthy' per se. It is merely an estimation of how our ancestors MAY have eaten, which certainly did not include processed junk, food which is cropped in an entirely nutrient-depleted soil etc. <br /><br />The key to healthy eating is moderate ketogenic diet which is supported through high fat, moderate protein and low carb. People use this type of diet for more than 'weight-loss' as it has neuro-protective effects for which some people actually need. It is palliative in many cases (as we all know the effects on seizure control). When it becomes palliative, you know it is necessary, just as using a wheelchair for someone who cannot walk is necessary.Zorica Vuletichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05793548904884383364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-56486648583725565342011-12-03T04:22:38.944-08:002011-12-03T04:22:38.944-08:00Hi Mark. Exactly!Hi Mark. Exactly!Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-74408257600507600962011-12-03T04:21:27.870-08:002011-12-03T04:21:27.870-08:00Hi Lerner. That article by Dr. Mora concludes that...Hi Lerner. That article by Dr. Mora concludes that: “Small LDL confounded the association of large LDL with IMT because of its strong inverse correlation with large LDL …”<br /><br /> Multivariate data analysis tools, such as WarpPLS, allow one to control for the effect of confounders. This is the reason why I can conclude, in the post linked below, that: “Animal protein and wheat flour consumption are still significantly associated with mortality, even after we control for smoking ...”<br /><br /> http://bit.ly/rXC0k0<br /><br /> Dr. Mora is right. Reaching sweeping conclusions based on univariate correlations (aka “unadjusted correlations”) is unwise. Still, I have a feeling that small-dense LDL particles are a problem, in the presence of other factors, such as systemic inflammation and oxidative agents.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-73436136276797073892011-12-02T18:44:06.592-08:002011-12-02T18:44:06.592-08:00Ned,
Great post. Your post is refreshing as I fin...Ned,<br /><br />Great post. Your post is refreshing as I find it frustrating to read great "paleo blogs" that now espouse high carbohydrate consumption through a discussion and citation of, say, a culture of African tribesmen who work in the fields 12 hours a day and are very healthy eating 78% carbohydrate. <br /><br />These studies are totally useless for those of us who work in a cubicle farm and maybe get to a gym 3 times a week.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-10067266365921236732011-12-02T07:51:31.702-08:002011-12-02T07:51:31.702-08:00...and I'm sure you know well the claims about......and I'm sure you know well the claims about LDL-size healthwise, but I didn't see the opposing MESA view mentioned here except in the 'skinny fat' thread (which wasn't about LDL size).<br /><br />Also, wrt to fasting TAG, studies like the Homburg Cream and Sugar study are showing that postprandial TAG is more predictive of CVD in normoglycemics. So pp testing might very well become the standard instead of fasting tests.<br /><br />http://www.theheart.org/article/1269389.doLernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409056468297249099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-15299791043666497832011-12-02T07:37:53.643-08:002011-12-02T07:37:53.643-08:00Ned, I realize your article is about LDL size as r...Ned, I realize your article is about LDL size as relates to body composition. However, since you are very involved in correlations, I'll point out that pattern A has been claimed to be less atherosclerotic, and even online sometimes falsely claimed to be proven as protective. However, a fairly recent sub analysis of the MESA study says that it is really LDL-P (number) that matters.<br /><br />http://www.athero.org/commentaries/comm564.pdf<br /><br />(from Samia Mora, M.D., M.H.S., Brigham and Women’s)<br /><br />Her analysis is all involved with correlation artifact, so I thought you might be interested.Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409056468297249099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-72717113428128825202011-12-02T06:36:40.750-08:002011-12-02T06:36:40.750-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409056468297249099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-51299668647186675392011-12-01T15:24:26.593-08:002011-12-01T15:24:26.593-08:00Thanks for the links Lerner. Indeed, what probably...Thanks for the links Lerner. Indeed, what probably happened was that the figure was corrected in a version of the book that is different from the one I scanned it from.<br /><br /> The largest particle looks like it is 200 nm in diameter. Nascent chylos are about 75 to 1,200 nm in diameter; they shrink to about 30 to 50 nm, to become remnants. VLDL particles are about 30 to 80 nm in diameter.<br /><br /> I have made the corrections. Thanks again!Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-86911116327080725362011-12-01T06:33:02.863-08:002011-12-01T06:33:02.863-08:00Ned, here is a screenshot of the correct illustrat...Ned, here is a screenshot of the correct illustration, taken from Amazon:<br /><br />http://visionals.info/NedCorrectAmazon.jpg<br /><br />In the version you have, someone has literally switched (a) and (b).<br /><br />here is the link to see for yourself:<br />http://www.amazon.com/Biochemistry-Molecular-Biology-William-Elliott/dp/0199226717<br /><br />page 172Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409056468297249099noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-68411799601634828742011-12-01T06:04:03.784-08:002011-12-01T06:04:03.784-08:00Hi Lerner. You deserve kudos for bringing that up;...Hi Lerner. You deserve kudos for bringing that up; but there is no mistake there. The chylos on the photo are at the mature and remnant stages. The “gigantic” (relatively speaking) chylos that you see in some illustrations (not so commonly in photos) are at the nascent stage. Those are transitory, after a fatty meal – not the case with this photo, I guess.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-23173657362184133382011-12-01T06:02:22.348-08:002011-12-01T06:02:22.348-08:00Hi David. The liver will be doing extra work from ...Hi David. The liver will be doing extra work from time to time for various reasons, and it is a big organ with many functions. For example, in a prolonged fast many more ketones are produced by the liver based on FFAs than in the fed state.<br /><br /> What I am not so sure is about providing the liver with an unnatural stimulus as a form of “liver workout”. I think that in this context the idea of hormesis is overused, and frequently used incorrectly.<br /><br /> On a related note, I find it quite reasonable to think that moderate alcohol consumption is healthy because of things other than hormesis – e.g., ketosis itself.Ned Kockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02755560885749335053noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-42293223476815571392011-11-30T14:15:15.459-08:002011-11-30T14:15:15.459-08:00I don't mean to over-simplify or miss the poin...I don't mean to over-simplify or miss the point by my reducing of the problem here, but I find it interesting that after 16 hrs, leptin 'resistance' improved and resulted in increased leptin transport (leptin transport is NOT leptin resistance in my opinion), and yet after 48 hours, leptin transport was impaired again...hmmm. To me that is evidence to support the claim that leptin can be considered to be an anti-starvation hormone.<br /><br />That is something very important to keep in mind if one is addressing weight-loss and post weight-loss status.Zorica Vuletichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05793548904884383364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8859456735165996893.post-36755693841698356382011-11-30T13:07:07.415-08:002011-11-30T13:07:07.415-08:00Hi, Ned. You've somehow got (a) and (b) switch...Hi, Ned. You've somehow got (a) and (b) switched in your lipoproteins figure. Chylomicrons should be the largest.Lernerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13409056468297249099noreply@blogger.com